Welcome to Leadership from the Balcony.
My name is Shawn Griesemer with my co-host Justin Dorroh. And each week we bring you a new leadership concept to inspire your growth and effectiveness as a leader in every area of your life.
We may not always use that language, but that is at the essence of so much leadership dialogue is the ability to see from someone else's point of view and when you can't, I think it definitely can impact your effectiveness.
Today we're going to talk about what does it mean to take your perspective and go from being controlled by it and it being a part of you to something you can actually evaluate and talk about with other people.
I've grown in appreciating and recognizing the value of is self-awareness. And so, I think at some level, the more in the last few years that I have become self-aware of default perspectives and what happens internally when I hear a perspective that is different, that's like the signal of pay attention right now. And why is what you think accurate and what they think is not accurate? And it's kind of like learning to interrupt yourself to go like hit the brake here because my natural tendency is to fly through the intersection metaphorically and consider how my what someone is sharing with me be true, be accurate. And maybe I just have not been able to see and understand from that point of view. So, I mean for sure it happens in family life. I think it has happened often with you and me. Yes, for sure. And then it happens even with you know client work and you come in thinking one way you get a new piece of information. Now you reflect and consider it and that starts to expand your perspective. I don't know what you would say. That's so good. I think my lack of understanding actually controls me. Perspectives you know perspectives are so below the surface. I love the way in an academic way the way they have started to define these is what are you subjected to versus what can you really objectively look at. And that's what they talk about when you go from this subject to object shift. And you know being subjected to a perspective we don't even know it's there. And I have countless times had to stop and ask myself okay how I am really seeing this. What's the sometimes they use those terms what's the narrative that you're telling yourself or I like there's a guy named Peter Senge who's at MIT that talks about mental models and there are these models that you fit everything in, but you're subjected to those mental models you generally don't even know they exist. And definitely when you and I have hit crisis points or even when I'm talking with my wife at times, we're talking about things I draw all these conclusions so quickly because I look through the lenses of those mental models of those subjected beliefs or perspectives and they color everything. The problem is they're not yours. That's right. They're only mine. Right. It's like we share the same language, but we have very different definitions of the same words. So, somebody says something my interpretation is attached to my definition of that word or what I need to do is understand, hey, when you say that, what does that mean exactly? That's right. I assume meaning instead of asking for meaning explicitly. And you do that long enough. Like you said, I mean, it is like it's so fast. You do it without even realizing you're doing it. Yes. And all of a sudden, you're or in my case, I'm frustrated. And then when you get someone else's meaning, you're like, oh, maybe I should have started there asking, recognizing, okay, I think we might be talking about two different things. And if we're not, okay, great. We're going to, we're going to have a healthy dialogue here. That's right. But it is an, I mean, I think that's the word that was used often versus like subject / object was assumptions. Yes. What are those hidden assumptions that I don't even know I have. It's funny. I'm even thinking of sitting in team meetings and having team members say, okay, well, the assumption that you guys are making is, and when they say it, I'm like, I didn't even realize you're right. I had that assumption that I have not even asked the question. And sometimes challenging those assumptions is what allows you to see possibilities that prior to you couldn't even see or make sense of. So. Yeah. I've noticed the danger in that is for the person who has made that assumption, when they talk, the other person feels like it's an indictment. Sure. Because the perspectives that we hold are true to us. Right. You know? So, when you and I would sit and have conversations, especially years ago, before we really started to work on this, we would have these conversations. I would have an assumption. I would assume that I knew what you meant by what you said, and then I would come back to you to say, well, it can't be that way. Why would you say this? That's not true. That's not what happened. And in fact, what I was doing was reading it through my own narrative. And I'll never forget the conversation you and I had one time where I had, I think I sent you an email or a text and was talking about, I'm sure you remember this. I do. I had sent you some feedback on a document that you had written and put all kinds of changes and edited it and said, hey, there's a lot more work I need to do on this, but this is what I could get done in the time that I had. I remember, maybe you can tell your perspective when you read that. I told Shawn, you were three seconds from getting a phone call. And I stopped myself and I asked the question. One of the books that we've read is called, what is it? Leadership Mind Traps? Yes, by Jennifer Garvey Berger. Tremendous. And there's a question that she asks in there to ask yourself, which is, how is the person on the other end of the communication the hero in their own story or something like that? Simple stories. Yeah. Yeah. And so I asked myself that question, how might Shawn be viewing himself as the hero? And it just gave me possibilities of actually the meaning of that text. And when I had like five possibilities, it immediately reduced that fight or flight response that was going on internally. And I think I actually waited four or five days before we actually had the conversation. But I didn't wait four or five days with anxiety. It was four or five days with a multitude of meanings that when I had that clarity, I realized like, I actually don't know what he meant here. So, I think by the time we got to the conversation, even the way I brought it up, there was no charge behind it. Because I truly didn't know. And I recognized by that question, oh, I could see it this way, this way, this way. I wonder what he meant. And what's funny is, what you actually meant was... I sat down and Justin did a great job. I mean, this was a massive compliment to him. He sat down and asked me before he said anything, because we were meeting at a local coffee shop and he said, hey, when you sent that email, this was a statement you made. What did you mean by that? And it was so unemotional and just, he was literally, it was like curiosity. I don't know the answer to the question I'm asking. I'm curious. What did you mean by this? And it gave me the opportunity to say, oh, I'm the kind of person if I sit down and I'm going to edit a document or whatever, I need time to really go do and do a job that I feel is thorough. So, what I was saying is, hey, I only had X amount of time to get this done. And for my own sense of obligation, I felt like I needed more time. It had nothing to do with how good the document was or not, but just to say, it just, I didn't feel I gave it all that I would want to. Exactly. So, at the end, it was like, it had zero attachment to the quality of the document. It was more an explanation from Shawn's perspective of the quality of the editing. That's right. What he did. And I was like, wow. Shawn, you were three seconds away from getting a phone call. But I think it really cemented, or at least gave a good framework and a practical, tangible experience of the power of this stuff of like, wow, I almost created a big problem because of the narrative of the perspective that I was subjected to. And that question began the process of helping me learn how to dislodge being attached to my opinions as if they are perfect. Obviously, we all know that none of our opinions are perfect. They're all in process and formation of growing, learning, and understanding. So, it was just such a tangible way to create connectivity to this concept for me. Yes. And we have gone back to that episode so many times with each other, with other people, because we have continued to both pursue learning of, man, how do you do this better? How do you hit pause internally? How do you actually surface those assumptions you have? And that's where we've learned a lot. Justin just referenced Jennifer Garvey Berger, who's written some tremendous stuff. Two of the questions that she always pairs together that we have found to be so helpful in working with people is first, ask yourself the question. If you can stop yourself long enough when you're in a moment of tension with another person or you're in decision-making and you're feeling like, why doesn't this person understand what I'm saying? The first thing that you can do is stop yourself and ask the question, what do I believe right now? What's the story I'm telling myself? What's the narrative, the assumption? What is inside me? What is the belief I have that is causing me to make the conclusions that I'm making? And if you can actually surface that thinking, it gives you the ability to then look at it and you say, what do I believe right now? So that's the first question. And then the next question you ask is, how might I be wrong? Or what are other alternatives? Just like Justin said, what he did was ask himself, hey, what are other ways? How might Shawn be making himself the hero in this, in his story? Just like Justin was thinking, how am I making myself the hero of my story and entertaining other possibilities? But it's hard to do that when you haven't first elevated your own thoughts on what your assumptions are. So that's the first question to ask is, what do I believe right now? And the second question to ask is, how might I be wrong? Or what are other alternatives? That's right. You know, the other thing, just listening to you share, is I think anytime we come into a new concept, our tendency is to be overly simplistic with it. Either or, black, white, fill in the blank, some other way to describe it. Because for me, the more I learned about this, I started thinking like, I can't have an opinion. Which is not at all what this concept is about. It's about learning to recognize I do have an opinion. It could be very strong because of experience or potentially data to support it or whatever it might be. However, that opinion is not all there is to know or to believe about a certain topic, subject, etc. Therefore, how do I remain open to a piece of information or a different perspective that might actually upgrade my perspective, upgrade that opinion, make it even more robust and more helpful. So this isn't a concept that causes you to not have strong opinions about things, but it is a consistent place of awareness that though I may have a lot of experience in a particular field or domain or category of work, I am only one person. I still carry limitations. And I think, honestly, in some ways success can be the biggest blind spot to ongoing growth and development because you think you know it all. And I think that's the big danger is how do we remain humble enough to recognize though I may have 10,000 hours in a particular area of expertise, I don't have 100,000 hours. And that could have an impact. So, I think that's helped me recognize I can still have opinions and I need to be open enough to recognize I don't know everything. That's really good. Yeah. And I want to go back to what you just said a second ago about you may think you are right. And this whole process is not about who's right and who's wrong. I think that's what's so helpful is you may be right, and they may be right. And isn't there a possibility out there that there is a greater good that can be sought in both perspectives coming together? You may both be wrong. So, it's not that I'm pursuing a state of rightness. It's pursuing a state of there's more to the story than I know, and I'm locked inside my own perspective unless I can crack that open and allow other perspectives to come in with it. That's right. So as Justin and I have talked about, and what are the things that have shaped us and what are the leadership concepts that really have moved us forward both in working together with each other as well as other people, just relationships in general, this has been one of the bedrock concepts that has really changed our lives and changed the way that we make sense of the world around us. That's right. And practically speaking, what I find is, because naturally I'm a person who you say something to me, I immediately assume meaning. And I move on it. And what it's done for me when that happens, and I recognize what someone just said is so unclear, now that I realize there's five different ways they could mean that, I will ask, when you say X, do you mean Y? Do you mean Z? Do you mean A, B, or C? And I think they can come back with clarity. And it's like, okay, now we just avoided potentially rounds and rounds of frustration. And this is so practical in the day-to-day of leadership, management, team life, work life, family life, of recognizing we all make assumptions at the drop of a hat. And the more we can be aware of that, recognize the multitude of meanings that are being added to the pool of meaning between us, then I think we can kind of fast track some of our clarity moments in terms of conversation to know how to move forward. That's so good.
Okay, so here's our leadership experiment for all of you. We want you to take some time in the next week, and when you find yourself in a moment of tension with someone, or you're, again, like in that decision making, and you're trying to really evaluate what is this person saying, or what do I really believe in this situation? Pause for a moment, if there's any kind of break, and really reflect on what do you believe at that moment? What's the narrative? What's the assumption that you have that's causing you to draw the conclusions that you're drawing? And take that perspective that you have that's really coloring what you're believing at that moment and surface it. Really evaluate it and say, can I actually look at it and make it an object to look at? And then ask yourself, what are other options? How might I be wrong? What are other ways to see this? And see if you can entertain something beyond your own perspective and watch how that opens up the conversation for something that we would believe would be greater than where you started.
So that's our challenge to you this week. Can you go out and expand your perspective by first identifying where you're coming from? And then can you actually entertain where somebody else might be coming from? And then pursue that conversation.
We appreciate you tuning in and hope you enjoyed the show. Before you take off, do us a quick favor, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. If you try our Leadership Challenge, send us an email and let us know how it goes. To stay informed, sign up for our newsletter in the show notes. We look forward to seeing you again on the balcony.
